Note: I wanted to let you know that I will be holding my next two college workshops at the University of California, San Diego on Jan. 28 and Feb. 4. At the workshops — you can sign up for one or both – I aim to share with you ways to help you make smart decisions about picking colleges and making them more affordable. You can learn more here and sign up for the workshops here. Lynn O.

Getting Hassled About College Choices

I received an email yesterday from a mom in Southern California, whose daughter Nicole is getting grief about the Southern universities that she has applied to.  Karen’s email raises a lot of interesting issues including preconceived notions about schools, the tendency of some parent(s) to push kids to attend their alma mater or state schools and a lack of understanding of how you can find schools that are more affordable. Aiming too high academically, for instance, can result in a teenager getting  aid packages stuffed with $55,000 worth of loans.

I’d love for you to read Karen’s note and share your thoughts in the comment box below.  Karen covers a lot in this note and I’m eager to read what you think! I will comment on the letter in my post tomorrow.

Email from a Concerned Mom

Thank you for your advice on this website and the books.  I have tried to incorporate the knowledge that I’ve learned in helping my daughter, who is a senior. We went to South and North Carolina to visit some smaller schools first (Furman, Elon, Davidson) and took a detour to Clemson.  The other schools were too small for her and she did like Clemson – so we started to look at schools a bit larger including Texas Christian University and Southern Methodist University.   With their lower costs and merit scholarships, our cost would be close to what we would pay for a University of California campus.  We are still waiting to hear back from others including Baylor University (which has a scholarship calculator on its website) and she is expecting merit aid from that school too.  I am sure she will receive flak for Baylor as well.

Nicole’s Merit Awards

Here is what she has gotten so far:

Texas Christian University (60k scholarship -15k a yr)

Southern Methodist University (48k scholarship – 12k a yr)

Clemson University (40k scholarship – 10k a yr)

University of San Diego ($0)

She has received the most negative comments about Clemson and TCU.  She really liked both schools when we visited them and both schools have Honors Colleges and Residences.  Clemson is a bit larger than what she was looking for, but the honor colleges and residences make the school seem smaller.

Why the Criticism?

I think most of the criticism is triggered by the rankings and locations – South versus Northeast.  Somehow anything in the Northeast must be better!  Also, many here in California are just not used to going to a different state for school and since many at my daughter’s school are first generation – the parents go by rankings and name. We used to live in Kansas City and most of her friends there already have selected Kansas State or University of Kansas. Our old neighbor’s daughter went to St. Olaf College. and many there also wondered why. I guess it is just that most kids usually stay close to home for college even in Kansas.

When we first started to look, the kids just made fun of her for looking at Furman and Elon – definitely schools not known out here!  I was impressed by the schools and wished she would have liked them!

We have used the tools for looking for schools with smaller class sizes, learning-based communities and those offering merit aid.  She has also learned about applying to the right schools and being realistic about matching up her grades, extracurriculars and test scores with universities.

My daughter has seen too many kids apply to schools even though they barely made the bottom of the 25-75% range. They are disappointed when they have gotten rejection letters or received no merit money.   We have also witnessed how family income comes into play.  She has seen many wealthy kids from our area get into Ivies (or other Ivy top tier) with stats a bit lower than some of her friends who were rejected even though they are National Merit scholars with perfect GPA’s and near perfect SAT’s, but who need aid.

Why Not USC?

While my daughter is pretty much sold on the idea of attending one of the schools on her list, the status and name issue keeps creeping in not only by her peers, but teachers and family members.  First, I am dealing with my husband’s family, who are LA natives.  My husband and his family attended University of Southern California for both their undergraduate and graduate work. Consequently, Nicole is not only battling the argument that one can only get a job attending a “name school,” but also that USC offers greater opportunities. And then there is the distance issue.  My mother- in-law believes kids should only attend college within a one-hour drive away from home so they can return every weekend and you can easily go take care of your kids if they are sick.  Hence my search for out-of-state colleges, gasp, that are not considered good, has been very alien to them.

My research shows that USC is different than it was in the 1950’s and the 1980’s when the relatives attended.  My husband’s family got a lot of money to send their kids there.  So I was able to show that the SAT range has gone up more than 300 points since then, and while my husband’s scores were in the upper 25% range then, our daughter with better SAT & ACT scores and higher GPA’s than her dad, is not in the upper 25% range now.

 Pressure from Her Teachers for Big Name Schools

Her teachers and peers have commented to her about her acceptances into some of these schools as “I thought you are smart.” She is in the top 3% of her school in Irvine – her 2012 class has 14 National Merit Scholars, and in last year’s class there were large numbers of students that went to the Ivies, UCLA and UC Berkeley.  Her one teacher pushed her to apply to Duke University.  She does like the school and she applied.  She is practical and has thought about later that they only accept 2 AP courses and she will have taken 9 (she has gotten 5’s on past tests), and she wouldn’t get merit money (not in the top 25%), so this would be very expensive.  So she is now thinking that since she is majoring in the sciences and plans to go to grad school in the health field, she needs to balance undergraduate cost with educational experience and it wouldn’t be wise to get into debt over Duke.  However, here is what she is being told – you have a better chance at grad school acceptances or med school going to Duke, UCLA, or USC.

Greater Competition This Year

I guess we are also noticing that she is in a very competitive graduation class – the application stats of the students at the places she has been applying are greater than in years prior.  In the past with her resume, she may have earned a full ride at some of these places, but is getting 10-15k off per year ($40k-$60k scholarships) instead at many of the schools she targeted.  Also, the economy maybe pushing high-achieving kids to look and apply at schools offering merit money more so than in the past.  She also applied and got into University of San Diego; however in the past many kids she knows got over 20k off with lower stats and extracurriculas, and she got in and didn’t get merit offers (as of now).  She was going to use that as a local backup if she could get the costs to a UC level!  But it seems there is more money out-of-state since many of her peers will not apply out of state so more competition here!

Any Advice?

If you have input in your columns about how to handle legacy parents and grandparents, going away to school and how to handle the “name” game with schools and teachers, I would greatly appreciate it. And again, thank you – at least she said she knows she is going to school and she likes where she has gotten in so far!

Karen

What Do You Think?

Okay folks, I’d love for you to weigh in on any aspect of Karen’s note. Please respond in the box below.

I devoted my last two college blog posts to exploring why high school counselors fail so many students with their college advice.

If you missed them, here they are:

What’s Wrong With High School Counselors

What’s Wrong With High School Counselors, Part II 

I received many great comments regarding those posts and I wanted to share some today, as well as my responses. As always, if you want to weigh in on this or any other subject, please use the comment box at the bottom of this post.

Comments from Readers

Paula, a private college counselor:

Most guidance counselor-delivered college-related presentations focus on financial aid, namely the FAFSA and a cursory mention of the CSS PROFILE. When the inevitable questions about “scholarships” arise, parents are told to beat the local bushes – clubs, activities, businesses, churches, etc – and to enter national competitions. Rarely, if ever, is there a mention of the BIGGEST source of scholarships: merit aid from the colleges themselves. Why? Because HS counselors don’t know which schools give them and how much they give.

Just yesterday I had a parent email me to ask if she had to file FAFSA since she was pretty sure her daughter wouldn’t qualify for need-based aid. First I recommended she get an estimate of her Expected Family Contribution which she did. It was $99,999. Yup, not getting any need-based aid with that! When I pointed out that she would be writing a check for the full sticker price for 4 years at the Ivy League schools her daughter aspires to attend, she seemed resigned.

Then I mentioned that there are lots of terrific schools that give 10 – 15K or more in merit $. She seemed shocked that her daughter could possibly save that much! So, I think that guidance counselors do kids a disservice by not being familiar with schools and their aid policies. Far too much emphasis is put on “name” schools when the better deals – and some would argue, the better outcomes – come from lesser known institutions.

The College Solution:

I couldn’t agree with you more! You summed up a couple of real problems with high school counseling including the infuriating practice of counselors directing students to hunt for private scholarships. Private scholarships represent the smallest source of college cash — just 4% of the awards available.

The biggest source of college grants is the federal government, but many families won’t qualify for the Pell Grant. To get the full grant you typically need to make less than $30,000. Consequently, for many families the biggest source of cash is – as you said – from the colleges themselves.

I also agree with you that financial aid presentations are typically focused on simply explaining what the FAFSA is and how you sign up for it. Counselors completely ignore how families are supposed to find generous schools, which is far more valuable.  Lynn O.

Linda Bianco, a school counselor:

Lynn, I know that counseling varies from school to school, but we’re not all bad! Unfortunately, college counseling programs do not teach much about college counseling, so most of us are self-educated. I have visited over 100 college campuses in 9 years and attend numerous professional development programs. I am well aware of meritaid.com and other sites. We do parent presentations and meet with our students in groups and individually throughout high school to keep them on track.

I think the solution is to have a college counseling component in the counselor training programs.

The College Solution:

Thanks so much for your comment. Of course there are great high school counselors who absolutely understand the college process and can provide valuable advice. I just wish there were more of them. I applaud you for making the effort to visit so many colleges and attend professional development programs.

I’m curious what you think of these professional programs. The financial aid/merit aid presentations that I’ve seen at some of these conferences are scarce and the sessions that I’ve attended have not been very helpful. What has been your experience?  Lynn O.

Jane, a mother:

And so… how to pick a good college counselor? how much to pay? is the $8500 weekend ‘app boot camp’ worth it? or should you spend $3000 for 4 years of advice?

Can a private counselor help your child get in?

 The College Solution

I can’t imagine that spending $8,500 for an application boot camp would be worth the money! I would think spending $3,000 for four years of advice would be a better deal.

I don’t think families should look for a private counselors to get a child into a particular school. Rather I think the goal would be find great academic fits for your child where he/she will be happy and to find schools that you could afford.

Unfortunately, a lot of private counselors also don’t understand the financial end of colleges so they recommend schools in a vacuum. I think that’s nuts! Lynn O.

Theresa Smith, mother:

Definitely found the advice from my two daughters well respected private school college counselor to be very biased. She was more interested in them attending prestigious colleges or schools the high school had relationships with. Also, there was little information or guidance on financial aid and scholarships.

The College Solution:

At many prestigious private high schools I think there is a bias towards the most elite schools. Parents send their children to these high schools to increase their child’s chances of getting into colleges at the top of US News rankings. That’s what the high schools try to deliver.

I agree that the counselors at these schools often don’t provide information about how to shrink the cost of these schools. I think the assumption is that these families are wealthy so they can afford any school, but that’s a big assumption. What’s more, families can make $150,000 to $200,000 and, in some cases, receive significant financial aid from expensive colleges. Lynn O.

 Bottom Line:

No matter where you go to high school, you should assume that you need to take the reins in the college admission process. Do your own research and don’t wait until your senior year when typically high school counselors begin helping students with college.

I want to thank everybody who commented yesterday on my post:

What’s Wrong with High School Counselors?

And a shout out to those who shared their thoughts about the post on the Facebook page for The College Solution. (If you haven’t checked it out and “liked” my new Facebook page, please do!)

The thoughtful comments that I received prompted me to respond to some of the issues that people raised.

Is The Counselor Knowledge Gap Really a Problem?

Jonathan,  who is a senior at the University of Chicago, wondered if the woeful lack of training that counselors receive in their graduate counseling programs “necessarily leads to a knowledge gap.” He mentioned that at his high school, admission reps from colleges visited, which led him to believe that these reps can provide high school counselors with lots of information.

Here’s my reaction to that practice:  High school counselors aren’t necessarily sitting in on college reps’ presentations. The counselors may not be interested or they may not have the time. But even if counselors did visit with the college reps, this can be of limited help.

The College Pitch

College reps are only going to present the best spin for their institutions. Colleges, after all, are businesses and their goal is to make the sale just as a car salesmen would. Admission reps, for instance, aren’t going to tell teenagers or counselors that the financial aid at their schools is lousy. They aren’t going to say that the typical financial aid package is primarily stuffed with loans. They won’t share if their students are  graduating with onerous levels of student loans.

The typical admission rep’s spiel to prospective students will go something like this: We have lots of scholarships and even some full-rides.  If you like our school, just apply and don’t worry about the price.

That kind of pitch is just that – a pitch. What teens need to know is how generous a school is. What percentage of financial need does the college typically meet? How accurate is the school’s net price calculator? There are lots of questions that educated consumers should be asking.

It’s hard to become an informed consumer, however, if the counselor can’t tell teens and their parents what questions to ask. And they usually don’t because they don’t know themselves.

 What Counselors at Affluent High Schools Know

Denise suggested that the knowledge gap is probably less of a problem for upper-middle-class and wealthy families. I would agree that these families enjoy an advantage because they know that their children will attend college. These families, however, have plenty of opportunities to mess up too.

And it would be a huge mistake to assume that counselors at affluent public high schools or even private high schools know more. I’ve heard from many parents whose children attend these schools who bitterly complain about the caliber of the advising.

Are You Kidding Me???

I was frankly stunned when I went to a recent conference of the Western Association for College Admission Counseling in Los Angeles and heard a veteran counselor, who for many years had headed the college counseling program at a prestigious private high school in Southern California, answer a question about merit scholarships.

Someone in the audience asked how counselors could find out about merit scholarship opportunities from individual schools and she said something to this effect:  She asked parent volunteers to look for merit scholarship info in the marketing material that colleges mailed to the high school.

When I heard that I almost fell off my chair! This highly respected counselor apparently didn’t know how to obtain this easily accessible information. There are lots of ways to identify merit awards that individual schools offer from such resources as the federal College Navigator, Common Data Sets, the College Board, COLLEGEdata, MeritAid.com and others. And yet this counselor’s trusty method was to have volunteer moms look through the snail mail they got!!

As I said, the high school counseling system is broken.

What Do You Think?

If you have any thoughts about the dreadful state of college counseling at high schools or how the system can be fixed, I’d love to hear from you. Just comment in the box below.

Lynn O’Shaughnessy is the author of The College Solution and she also writes college blogs for CBSMoneyWatch and US News & World Report. Follow her on Twitter.

Read More on The College Solution:

The Dangers of Perfect Parenting

8 Ways to Boost Your ACT and SAT Scores

Are We in a Higher Ed Bubble?

The Best Colleges You’ve Never Heard Of

I wrote this post a year ago, but I wanted to share it again because I think it’s important that families understand the limitations of many high school counselors when it comes to sharing advice about critical college issues. Parents and teenagers need to know this because if they rely exclusively on their counselor’s advice, they could make poor college choices.

I know I will receive angry emails from high school counselors over this post just like I did in the past, but that’s okay because it’s critical that families understand what their counselors can and can’t provide!

What’s Wrong With High School Counselors

Is your teenager’s high school counselor an expert on college?

Probably not.

In fact, the odds are high that your counselor’s knowledge about college admission strategies, standardized testing and scholarships is limited.  Ironically during this period of skyrocketing college costs, financial aid is often the subject that high school counselors know the least about.

Many high school counselors are unfortunately overwhelmed with work, but it’s not just the crazy schedules that explain why the college IQ of many counselors is stunted.

Why Counselors Don’t Know Enough

As I discovered in talking to experts about this issue, here’s the chief reason:

Before counselors can begin working in a public high school, they must earn a master’s degree in counseling. Graduate school programs, however, rarely offer even one class in college planning. Consequently,  the majority of counselors arrive at high schools ignorant about critical college issues even though for many families a bachelor’s degree represents the second biggest expense they will ever face. In my opinion, this is truly scandalous.

This lack of training on the graduate level is “pretty scary,” suggests Bob Bardwell, a public high school counselor in Massachusetts and a vice president at the American School Counselor Association. A few years ago, Bardwell was a member of a NACAC task force, which experienced limited success in encouraging graduate schools to add even a single college planning class to their curriculum. While there are hundreds of these graduate programs across the country, Bardwell estimates that only two dozen or so offer a college counseling class.

Mental Health Preparation

College admission issues are simply not on the radar of graduate schools, which are more focused on mental health issues. A lot of people in the program are mental health professionals, who are territorial about what they will include in their curriculum, Bardwell says.

Without formal training, new counselors rely on colleagues at their schools to show them the ropes.  Carl “Sandy” Behrend, a former NACAC president and an educational consultant in Buffalo, NY, told me that it usually takes four or five years of these informal apprenticeships before counselors feel comfortable.

While this lack of training is common knowledge in the higher-ed world, I know that parents would be shocked to learn that most high school counselors are not college authorities. Many parents believe that high school counselors would be able to answer all their questions if they could only get some precious face time with them.

Why the Knowledge Gap is Unacceptable

This college knowledge gap in high schools is unacceptable, says Steven Antonoff, an independent college counselor in Colorado and the author of College Match:  A Blueprint for Choosing the Best School for You.

“The stakes are higher and there hasn’t been an increase by and large in public schools and even in private school funding for college counseling,” Antonoff told me. “It’s a very difficult situation that has created a gap between the needs of a student looking at schools today and the level of expertise available to them.”

As a general rule, experts suggest that counselors are better prepared at private high schools because they are often able to spend a majority of their time focused on getting their students into college. Public school counselors, who can devote their time exclusively to college admissions, are a rare luxury. Many private schools use their college counseling services as a lure for attracting students, but there is definitely no guarantee that these counselors are experts either. I have run into plenty who aren’t.

What Do You Think?

I’d love to hear your take on this controversial issue. Please share your thoughts in the comment box below.

Read More on the College Solution:

Why High School Counselors Are Failing

Are School Counselors the Weakest Link?

I am always thrilled when I get email from parents who pass along success stories. Today I heard from Gary Hasenbalg, a dad from New Jersey, who wanted to thank me for the college advice he’s gleaned from my book and college blogs. I asked him if I could share his family’s experience and he said sure. I think this their experience with the college process can be helpful to others who are still dreading it.

A New Jersey Girl’s Search

Carol’s college search began late in 2009 visiting open houses as a high school junior. I had already read The College Solution and followed your Web posts for quite some time. I was on a mission to be both a supportive Dad AND an educated consumer. Countless other parents have overlooked the consumer side of this equation. If this was a system, I wanted to beat it. And we did.

We beat the system by learning all we could about how it works. Your blog posts consistently proved to be the most valuable nuggets of useful information I could find. As our daughter’s college search progressed, Carol thoughtfully journaled her pros and cons in a trusty ‘geek book’ she toted along to every college visit. Her wish list took shape. Carol was interested in attending a mid-sized, liberal arts college. Fine with me. We never looked back.

Ramapo College of New Jersey

Ramapo College of New Jersey is New Jersey’s public liberal arts college. I knew of the school, learned about its mission and upward trend. (Note for your blog: Ramapo publishes freshman and graduating senior survey results online. Interesting perspective from a college’s key stakeholders: students!)

Carol’s high school counselor told her Ramapo was “beneath her” and talked her out of wasting her time at a visit I scheduled. Her overall portfolio, academic achievements, high GPA and test scores would land her a spot in many top notch schools. The name brand choices the counselor peddled, however, never resonated with Carol. She knew what she wanted and where she wanted to be. I keyed in on helping her find a place to thrive in the top 10% of the incoming class. One of our goals was to also find an affordable solution. We wanted no part of loans opting instead to do all we could financially to give Carol a debt-free start in life.

Carol was invited to attend a Ramapo College Immediate Decision Day in October of last year. Her application, letters of recommendation and essay were sent a month prior. When she found out she would get an acceptance decision right away, it was a no-brainer. Her response, “I’m in!” The decision, like so many other things now, was immediate. It included merit award offers to qualified applicants.

Nearly a Full-Ride

My wife Sandy, a 5th grade teacher, and I managed our expectations. Our goal all along was to guide Carol to a place where she could find her purpose along with plenty of opportunities. So when our family was the last of thirty or so to be called in together for “The Decision” we honestly didn’t know what to expect. Carol had interviewed one-on-one with Matt, the admissions counselor. This time we went in together. Something felt different. The college pennant on the desk confirmed acceptance.

The thick envelope in Matt’s hand held the prize. Matt took great pride, on behalf of the college president, in offering Carol a Ramapo College Presidential Scholar Award. The award Carol earned is worth $72,000, nearly a full ride. Carol trembled, Sandy cried and I – for once in my life – was speechless. Soon, our scholar will be on her way to find her purpose as a member of the Class of 2015.

The path we traveled was different than most. I’m grateful more than these words can possibly convey to have you in my slightly expanded circle. So thank you, Lynn, for your fine work. It is a precious gift.

Note:

I am very happy for the Hasenbalg family and I’m thrilled that Carol is going to a liberal arts college, which I think is the best choice for most undergraduates. If you want to learn more about public and private liberal arts colleges, here are some past blog posts that I’ve written:

5 Reasons to Attend a Liberal Arts College

Where Professors Send Their Children to College

What is a Small College?

An Undiscovered Gem: Public Liberal Arts Colleges

Lynn O’Shaughnessy is the author of The College Solution, an Amazon bestseller and a workbook, Shrinking the Cost of College: 152 Ways to Cut the Cost of a Bachelor’s Degree. Follow her on Twitter.

Phooey: Race to Nowhere

Here is my original post:

A Race to Nowhere Skeptic

I wasn’t going to revisit this subject, but I received another insightful comment on the subject from Wendy Andreen, PhD, an independent college counselor and until recently a high school counselor at a highly competitive high school in Texas. I thought you’d enjoy her reaction to the Race to Nowhere comments on my blog. Here goes:

A Reader’s Comment

Lynn, Kris, & Alice,

I can support almost all of your comments – and, Lynn, you are absolutely correct, “college angst is unnecessary.” The reality, however, is that this runaway train of college admissions does exist, it impacts a lot of our students and parents, and it isn’t always that easy to bring it to a halt.

Having just stepped off of that train as a college counselor in a highly competitive public high school (and now work with students privately) and as a parent of two young adults who attended the same school, I can assure you that I spent most of my time expressing many of your sentiments and reassurances that there is a post-secondary program for every student, whether it is a four-year, two-year, technical, arts, or other program. My mantra was (and is) that there is a ‘fit’ for each student. Develop the gifts and talents that you have and you will find your niche. But it takes time and research to find those places. Our counselors have case loads of over 550 students and we meet with everyone of them and conduct multiple parent meetings throughout the year!

High School Decisions

My husband and I did our best to keep our own children in balance with the system and it wasn’t always easy. Every student is different and there will always be ‘comparisons’ made by the students themselves, whether it is with siblings or peers. Decisions do have to be made about academics and how many pre-AP and AP courses are appropriate relative to the student’s abilities, future academic goals, majors, and colleges. Which activities truly support a student’s interests? The list of choices and decisions goes on and it takes time, conversation, understanding, and support to guide our children through the maze of decisions.

Ivy Fixation

Most of the students from my former school attend a wide variety of colleges throughout the U.S. and love their choices (that’s part of your 67%). However, just as the film depicts, we have a group with certain expectations for the ‘right’ college and it doesn’t matter what we say.  ‘Sometimes’ we could work through the idea that there were more than 18 worthy colleges for consideration (in our case the Ivies, a few other super-selective schools, and the two flagship universities in Texas).

Race to Nowhere Screening

I, too, have been following the trailers for Race to Nowhere and last night I attended a screening of the movie. The theater was filled with educators and concerned parents. I agree that parents can do a lot to slow down the train but there will always be the issues of students who are ultra-high self-achievers, parents who have unrealistic expectations, states and school districts who are obsessed with testing, and colleges who continue to heavily market their schools and are looking for high yields. It’s not quite as black and white a picture as each of you would like to paint.

I could have easily interchanged some of the students in this documentary with students from my former high school and I’m sure all of you have seen it in your own communities. The film brought forth valid issues that need to be addressed even if it is only to make families more aware that they don’t have to participate in this madness. The reality is that high schools and colleges would have to work together and as one of the admissions reps from Berkeley said in the movie, she feels like she perpetuates the problem by the very nature of the system.

30% of Students

Using your 67%-70% figure for students who get their first-choice schools, we are still dealing with 30+% of the students who are riding this runaway train and are looking for ways to get off. I ask that you actually view the movie to better understand the reality of the issues but, just as I do, continue to reassure parents and students that they don’t have to get on this train to reach their desired destination.

Thanks for the work you do to help students and parents.