Today I’m sharing a guest post from Stuart Nachbar, a former executive at a major education software company, who is the creator of a valuable website called EducatedQuest.com. On this website, you’ll find a growing number of in-depth profiles of state universities that Nachbar writes after campus visits that includes lengthy interviews. I have never seen anyone squeeze so much out of a campus visit.

I thought you’d appreciate Nachbar’s advice about how to evaluate a institution’s career placement services.

• When does the school’s career services office first engage students? Is it to help them choose a major?

More and more the career services office has become involved in “University 101″ classes, working with faculty instructors and the student peer mentors to include units on resume preparation and/or research on careers and employers. Some schools have bought software that allows a student to do online searches by major for jobs or careers.

• How many employers come to campus each year through job fairs and on-campus interviewing?

The number of fairs is more important, because fairs are organized for internships as well as full-time jobs by major. A large state university will typically host job fairs for business/liberal arts, engineering, health care, government/non-profit and education. Other schools also have job fairs through the major departments where the faculty is well connected. For example, the University of Rhode Island’s College of Pharmacy handles a job fair for undergrads in pharmaceutical sciences and their pharmacy doctoral students.

• What majors are most sought by employers?

I ask this because I want to know how the employers know of the school. For example, Purdue is well known to recruiters for engineering, computer science and agriculture within the Fortune 500 and consulting forms. The undergraduate business program is a “management” degree that has been popular with manufacturing firms for decades.

Purdue may be a better school for a student who is interested in working for a consumer products company than, for example, Indiana, which has aggressively targeted corporate finance and investment banking positions.

• What cities/states do most employers come from? Does this match with student interest in terms of places where they would like to work?

State schools such as Indiana, Miami (OH), New Hampshire, Penn State, Purdue, Rhode Island and West Virginia now attract at least 30 percent of their students from outside their state. Sometimes, especially if they come from California or New York, students will want to return home to work.

It helps parents to know if the career services office has connections or has worked with alumni in those cities. Sometimes schools will also collaborate on live or virtual employment events in popular cities. The Big East schools, for example, host a live career fair in New York City in conjunction with the Big East basketball tournament.

• How many jobs were posted last year?

I am more interested in a trend, whether the number of jobs posted has gone up or down, as well as the numbers for internships and full-time jobs, if the school separates them.

At a good school the volume should go up, if for nothing else because the career center has made it easy for employers to register and post online for no charge.

• What do employers like most about your students?

I’m curious to know what the employers report in a survey as opposed to anecdotes. To be honest, I get more anecdotes. But the appearance of the office and how they manage the interview rooms (for larger schools) tells a lot.

• What does your office offer them that comparable schools do not?

Career service directors at the larger schools have placed more emphasis on coordination to help the employer get more from their campus visits. While interview schedules may be set across different schools, there is more care taken to help the employer complete all interviews for all positions over a period of two or three days as opposed to several repeat visits.

 • Is your school a part of job networks or job fairs in partnership with other schools?

Both large and small schools share jobs across regions, states or sports conferences. Networks are more beneficial for smaller schools that cannot fill on-campus interview schedules on their own and/or do not have a large alumni base.

Events can be live, for example, a job fair at a conference center in a large city where the students want to work, or they may be online. “Last chance” events, where employers are still seeking to fill positions after the end of March, are popular for online platforms.

Lynn O’Shaughnessy is the author of the second edition of The College Solution and a workbook, Shrinking the Cost of College.

Beware colleges’ job placement claims

Career Services Questions to Ask

1.  Are career services and experiential learning separate  offices at your university or do they work together?

Career centers will usually handle the non-academic aspects of finding an internship or other experiential opportunity. They will manage the employer contact database and coordinate any meetings between the student and faculty involved in approving the student’s assignment as well as the academic credit for the position. They will also vet any legal agreements between the student, the school and the employer. These are to help ensure that the student has a relevant work experience; too often employers used interns as “go-fers.”

2. When does career services first engage students? Is it to help them choose a major?

More and more the career services office has become involved in “University 101″ classes, working with the faculty instructor and the student peer mentor to include units on resume preparation and/or research on careers and employers. Some schools have bought packages such as FOCUS where a student may do an online search by major for jobs or a search of careers for majors.

3.  How many employers come to campus each year through job fairs and on-campus interviewing?

The number of fairs is more important, because fairs are organized for internships as well as full-time jobs by major. A large state university will typically host job fairs for business/liberal arts, engineering, health care, government/non-profit and education. Other schools also have job fairs through the major departments where the faculty are very well connected. For example, the University of Rhode Island’s College of Pharmacy handles a job fair for the BS in Pharmaceutical Sciences and their PharmD students.

4.  What majors are most sought by employers?

I ask this because I want to know how the employers know of the school. For example, Purdue, where I just visited is well known to recruiters for engineering, computer science and agriculture within the Fortune 500 and consulting forms. The undergraduate business program is a “management” degree that has been popular with manufacturing firms for decades. Purdue may be a better school for a student who is interested in working for a consumer products company than, for example, Indiana, which has aggressively targeted corporate finance and investment banking positions.

5.  What cities/states do most employers come from? Does this match with student interest in terms of places where they would like to work?

State schools such as Indiana, Miami (OH), New Hampshire, Penn State, Purdue, Rhode Island and West Virginia now attract at least 30 percent of their students from outside their state. Sometimes, especially if they come from California or New York, students will want to return home to work. It helps parents to know if the career services office has connections or has worked with alumni in those cities. Sometimes schools will also collaborate on live or virtual employment events in popular cities. The Big East schools, for example, host a live career fair in New York City in conjunction with the Big East basketball tournament.

6. How many jobs were posted last year?

I am more interested in a trend, whether the number of jobs posted has gone up or down, as well as the numbers for internships and full-time jobs, if the school separates them. At a good school the volume should go up, if for nothing else because the career center has made it easy for employers to register and post online for no charge. In the past many schools referred employers to a service called JobTrak that charged to type their jobs and shared revenues with the school.

7. What share of the students continue their education vs. accepting employment?

This has become more important because more career centers handle graduate and professional school advising or work closely with others who do.

8.  What do employers like most about your students?

I’m curious to know what the employers report in a survey as opposed to anecdotes. To be honest, I get more anecdotes. But the appearance of the office and how they manage the interview rooms (for larger schools) tells a lot.

9. What does your office offer them that comparable schools do not?

Career service directors at the larger schools have placed more emphasis on coordination to help the employer get more from their campus visits. While interview schedules may be set across different schools, there is more care taken to help the employer complete all interviews for all positions over a period of two or three days as opposed to several repeat visits.

10. Is your school a part of jobs networks or job fairs in partnership with other schools?

Both large and small schools share jobs across regions, states or sports conferences. Networks are more beneficial for smaller schools that cannot fill on-campus interview schedules on their own and/or do not have a large alumni base to work with. Events can be live, for example, a job fair at a conference center in a large city where the students want to work, or they may be online. “Last chance” events where employers are still seeking to fill positions after the end of March, are popular for online platforms.

I want to major in art.

This is the college major that perhaps more than any other strikes fear in the hearts of parents, who worry that an art degree will condemn their children to a life eating Cheerio’s for dinner and driving old subcompacts with bald tires.

The truth is there are a myriad of careers in a wide range of fields waiting for students who graduate with a fine arts degree. I don’t think anyone should discourage a child from pursuing this major. I haven’t. My own son Ben is double majoring in mathematics and studio art.

Today, I have a guest blogger, Harriet Katz, who is a college consultant in Northern California, who works with students interested in the visual arts. She’s sharing some great tips on finding schools for future art majors.

I can’t resist, however, adding one tip myself. Be very careful if your child wants to attend a school dedicated exclusively to art because they tend to be extremely expensive without decent financial aid. Here is a post that I wrote on this subject: 25 Colleges With the Highest Hidden Price Tags

6 Tips for Selecting a School for Art Majors

1. Attend a fair for art majors.

One way to learn about many different schools is to attend the National Association for College Admission Counseling’s Performing and Visual Arts College Fair, which is held annually in major cities throughout the country. At the fair, you will have an opportunity to meet representatives from specialized programs in the visual and performing arts.

2. Discover the difference between types of schools.

Learn the difference between the various degrees and the types of schools. Do you want to pursue a bachelors of art or a bachelors of fine art? Do you want a conservatory, a 4-year visual arts school or a 4-year college that offers both broad liberal arts and visual arts courses?

Use online resources to research schools such as the directory published by the Association of Independent Colleges of Art and Design.

3. Don’t believe gossip.

Research not only the programs offered at different schools, but who is teaching and more importantly, who will be studying alongside you. Look for a school that is clear about what type of student is suited to benefit from their courses. If you are a painter, research the painting instructors. Where do they show their work? How does their personal work influence their teaching? Does it suit your interests?

4. Know what schools want.

Some schools balance their admissions decisions equally between grade point averages and portfolios. Others clearly view your portfolio as the most important information they have about your suitability for their program. Research this information to find the program appropriate to your skill level and academic performance.

Ask questions such as how many students have access to studio space? Are internships supported? Will you have access to alumni and be encouraged to network with artists working in your field?

5. Don’t produce work just for a portfolio.

Rather, you should continue to create a large a body of work to choose from when selecting pieces for your portfolio. Make sure you understand the requirements as to the type of work and the total number of pieces allowed. Include pieces that show observational skills as well as the power of your imagination. Remember, schools look for excitement, commitment and creativity, not just skill.

6. Don’t just look at best-known programs.

Look for the programs that might not be the most publicized. Everyone knows about Rhode Island School of Design and their unique relationship with Brown University. You should also familiarize yourself with programs such as the Maryland Institute College of Art and their relationship with Johns Hopkins University.

More from The College Solution:

So Your Child Wants to Major in the Arts

Getting Real About Majoring in Engineering

How U.S. News’ College Rankings Can Hurt You

I’ve been devoting this week’s posts to college accountability.

Are colleges and universities doing what we are paying them to do:  educating our children and preparing them for the working world? In most cases we don’t know.  If you missed my two previous posts, here they are:

Sharing a College’s Return on Investment

College + Degree = Joke?

In my last post, I mentioned the database that St. Olaf College created that allows families to see how many grads found jobs or went on to graduate school and where they landed.

Unfortunately, what St. Olaf is doing is extremely rare and if we depend on schools to self report job outcomes we can probably forget about meaningful disclosure.

Sketchy Alumni Surveys

If you’ve ever asked a university admission office  how many alums get into grad school or have found a job, you will probably receive an answer. But these stats depend on grads filling out surveys and returning them. If your efforts to get into medical school was a bust and you’re unemployed and living back home, would you return your alma mater’s survey?

I found out something fascinating about these self-reported employment/grad school surveys while I’ve been attending the annual conference of the Higher Education Consultants Association (HECA) in New Jersey this week. (I was the speaker at a couple of sessions.) At the conference, an admission director at SUNY Binghamton told me that nationally the return rate on these surveys is about 5%.

Hard Data from Virginia

There is another way, however, to measure whether a school is doing a good job of preparing students academically for the real world. States can get involved.

The state of Virginia is ready to deliver it. Virginia has developed a database that will provide median salary information for graduates at colleges and universities throughout the state. The database will also contain information on median salaries of students in different majors.

Using the database, for instance, you could compare the median salary of a political science major at George Mason University with a poly sci grad from the University of Virginia.

There will be some limitations to the database. Graduates of Virginia schools will only be tracked if they work in Virginia and the self employed are excluded. Still this tool will be valuable for families evaluating Virginia schools. All public universities will be in the database, but only some private institutions.

The Chronicle of Higher Education published an article earlier this year about the Virginia database. The article said the database was to be rolled out this spring, but I couldn’t find it yet. I’m assuming it isn’t ready yet, but if it is up and running, I will supply the link later.

As the article explains, there is no reason why other states can’t do the same thing:

You can read the entire Chronicle article here: Taking Some Guesswork Out of the Value-of-College Question

Bottom Line:

All states should be following Virginia’s lead. The sooner we have hard data about how schools are preparing students for life after college, the more irrelevant those dubious college rankings will be.

Lynn O’Shaughnessy is the author of the second edition of The College Solution: A Guide for Everyone Looking for the Right School at the Right Price.

In my last post I discussed a serious dilemma facing families searching for colleges.

When we send our teenagers off to college, we expect that our children will return to us smarter, wiser and employable. But it’s nearly impossible to determine which schools are in the best position to help make this happen. Here is the post:

College + Degree = Joke?

Without hard data on learning and job outcomes, families tend to turn to college rankings, which are not proxies for academic quality. Rankings simply serve as a measure of a school’s wealth and prestige (whether it’s deserved or not).

 A Trailblazing College

In the face of this dreary reality, I am excited to pass along what one trailblazing school is doing to share its return-on-investment results.  Recently St. Olaf College, a highly respected liberal arts college in Northfield, MN, devoted considerable time to tracking down where its 2011 graduates had landed after earning their bachelor’s degree.

The college recently posted amazingly detailed employment information on its website for all to see. Every year, the college intends to add the job placement details of the newest graduating class to its database.

After gathering data for 92% of its 2011 graduates, St. Olaf concluded that 98% had a job or full-time volunteer work.  Twenty eight percent were furthering their education in  graduate or professional schools and 70% were in the workforce, in the military or involved in volunteering with such organizations as the Peace Corp, Americorp and Teach for America.

What I found particularly helpful when using St. Olaf’s database is being able to drill down and see what jobs students obtained for individual majors. When I looked at French majors, for instance, I saw one grad had won a Fulbright scholarship, another student was working at the French Ministry of Education and yet another was working at a healthcare corporation in Madison, WI.

Here is where you can check out  St. Olaf’s Return on Investment page.

The Case for the Liberal Arts

Clearly what St. Olaf is doing is making the case for a liberal arts degree. I agree with the liberal arts supporters at St. Olaf and elsewhere who argue that the liberal arts are relevant in today’s job market. Employers are always going to need graduates that think and reason critically and can write cogently.

Liberal arts, however, are under siege because many parents and students believe you need a practical degree to get a job.  Perhaps because liberal arts colleges are feeling the heat, they appear to be at the forefront of innovation in this area. A recent article in The Chronicle of Higher Education, which mentioned St. Olaf’s database, made this observation:  “Some of the most innovative ideas for helping recent graduates find work are coming from a sector that has long felt uncomfortable with the concept of preparing their students for jobs:  liberal arts colleges.

Q & A with St. Olaf’s President

I was so impressed by what St. Olaf is doing that I asked David Anderson, the president of St. Olaf about his college’s decision to obtain and share its ROI data. Anderson, who was traveling in Norway, was kind enough to peck out his answers via email.  Anderson provides a video explanation the school’s new ROI database here.

Q. Why did St. Olaf decide to track down and release job outcomes?

A. Two main reasons, really.  First, students and their families want to be able to evaluate the investment they are going to make in a liberal arts education, just as they would any investment, and it is our responsibility to provide them with clear, accurate, transparent information that enables them to make this evaluation.  Part of the relevant data they want to consider is the employment outcomes of our students, so we provided it.  Higher Ed in general needs to provide more and more transparent information about its operations.  This is a good start.

Second, this information is also very helpful to current students who are engaged in vocational discernment and who are helped by seeing what other English majors or Philosophy majors etc. are doing post-BA.

Q. What should families do with this information?

A. The decision about where to attend college is obviously a complex one, and the benefits and outcomes are both tangible and intangible.  But employment outcomes of graduates is important and relevant information, and I invite families to include it along with the other information they gather in considering the right college choice for their student and their circumstances.

Q. What other schools are you aware of that are also releasing job outcomes?

A. I believe that Bucknell University does this as well. Most don’t go to this level of detail.

Q. Are the typical statistics that colleges and universities share about the percentage of students getting jobs out of college and heading to grad/law/medical school meaningful? Aren’t these statistics typically self reported and consequently leave out many underemployed or unemployed students who are more likely not to respond?

A. Yes, they typically are self-reported, and so must be evaluated carefully.  For example, is the percent with jobs a percent of all graduates or only of those who responded to the questionnaire? That’s why we have provided so much detail with our report.  You can tell exactly how many students graduated, exactly how many reported their outcomes, and exactly what those outcomes are.  This should be the standard for all such reporting.

Q. How difficult or easy was it to track what grads were doing

A. Once we decided that we were determined to get this information, it wasn’t that hard.  As with most things, patience and persistence won the day.

Q. Do you think the pressure for institutions to generate and share learning/job outcomes will prompt more schools to follow St. Olaf’s lead?

A. That’s our plan!

Q. Do you think the federal government will have to mandate some sort of student-learning and job-market outcome requirements that will be tied to federal aid?

I would prefer to let the market impose that requirement, not the government, at least for not for profit colleges and universities.

Bottom Line:

I hope many colleges and universities follow St. Olaf’s lead. Families desperately need this transparency.

Lynn O’Shaughnessy is the author of the second edition of The College Solution: A Guide for Everyone Looking for the Right School at the Right Price.

Today I am happy to share with you a thoughtful post that David Montesano, one of my favorite independent college college consultants, wrote about college rankings. Montesano is the owner of College Match Educational Consultants, which has offices in the San Francisco Bay area, Seattle and elsewhere.

Three Degrees of College Prestige

In an era where a sour economy is creating a bleak outlook for college grads across the board, it is interesting to consider the varying definitions of a college’s prestige.

Defined simply as standing or evaluation in the eyes of other people, graduates today have to consider what kind of credit they are searching for.

Is it “cocktail party” or social prestige, graduate school placement prestige, or prestige with employers who wish to hire you? Given new challenges in the recession, one needs to decide what accolades are of top priority. All things considered, choosing wisely may produce a perfect fit for student and pocket alike.

Social Prestige

Ever-powerful social prestige can be hard to combat. College rankings such as US News and Reports consistently use a similar grouping of private national universities in the top 50. Clearly, there are reasons the small class sizes, low acceptance rates, and impressive faculties of the Ivies and top schools like Duke and Berkeley draw a strong applicant pool.

The caliber of education received at these schools should not be discredited, but it is important to understand a certain social conscience does not mean another smaller school cannot create equally impressive results.

A study ranking universities by general public opinion gave 75% credit to student opinion polls, professor opinion, and references to the school in the media (in a non-athletic context)[1].

The rankings produce a list so similar to major polls, clearly social ideas of a school play into its reputation. Since 2008, there has been a 10% decline in starting salaries for new students, without considering inflation.[2]

Of course, this is only considering the students that actually got a job. Of the members of the class of 2010, only 56% secured a job by graduation, a huge shift from the 90% in 2007. About half of these graduates stated their first job did not require a college degree.[3] As unemployment rates trickle down, the less academic prestige you have the worse off you are.

Graduate School Placement Prestige

Suddenly, a school’s value may be defined more by its ability to create graduate students, or helping to pick a major that acquires a stable job. Assessing a study on colleges producing the highest percentage of doctoral students, institutions such as Harvey Mudd College and Carleton College (see on the left) are in the top 10; above every Ivy League school.

Others in the top fifty include Kalamazoo, St. John’s, Occidental, and Mt. Holyoke Colleges.[4]  Another study on feeder schools presents Morehouse, College and New College of Florida in the top 50, above top military academies and many private universities.

An honors school in the Florida state school system, New College’s small school setting allows for very personalized evaluations, which helps students do the type of research as undergrads that attracts the attention of prestigious graduate schools.

Smaller and more locally focused, there can be resources and options available to top students at these regional schools. Additionally, these institutions are often a way to save money while preparing to move on to higher degrees. Saving money is important, given a 10% pay-cut. Current undergraduate student loan debt has a median of $20,000. Many will only take on more, with 60% of students in the last five graduating classes stating they will need additional formal education to be successful.[5]

Find prestige by searching for a school that has a specialty within your interests.  Whether that is environmental studies, journalism, or teaching often the best schools for these passions are not simply one of the top known schools. First, consider a major that ends in a job. Currently the top ten highest paying majors are in the engineering, marketing, and finance world. Some of the best marketing research schools include Michigan State, the University of Georgia, and the University of Wisconsin.[6] If you are considering business, the University of Texas and Indiana University rank in the top ten.

Employer Prestige

A third type of prestige is employer prestige. At the end of the day, which schools are handing out the best graduate pay checks?

Often, this may have much more to do with networking or strong alumni connections, not just social conscious. According to the website, Pay Scale, and its annual rankings showing what recent graduates make, Manhattan College, SUNY Maritime (see on the right), Colorado School of Mines, Babson College, and Santa Clara University all rank in the top 25 given both starting median salary and mid-career median salary of graduates.[7]

Knowing you want to live in a certain city or region long-term may be crucial in choosing a school. Finding an alumni network nearby and a specified job industry can mean high dividends later.

Bottom Line:

Overall, the way other people view a school when you state where you attend college has nothing to do with how that institution sets you up for the future. “Cocktail party” prestige is not enough to ensure a good paying job after college and certainly not a high rate of admission to top flight graduate programs.

My advice is work hard to find an area of focus that may lead you down a unique path, searching for graduate school placement, a job, or social prestige. In the end, if you find a path that is more specific to your needs it may prove to be the best cocktail party story of all!Here are links to explore that Montesano provided to back up his research.

Read More:

[1] http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/880855-universities-ranked-prestige.html

[2] http://www.heldrich.rutgers.edu/sites/default/files/content/Work_Trends_May_2011.pdf

[3] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html?_r=2

[4] http://web.centre.edu/ir/student/OverallBaccOrigins.pdf

[5] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html?_r=2

[6] http://education-portal.com/articles/Top_Schools_for_Marketing_Research.html

[7] http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp